June 29, 2005

The Great MP3 Debate… Are We Going To Jail?

The Great MP3 Debate…
"Are MP3 Files Illegal?"

This information (below) is in response to a press release (along with comments made from the stage by the creators at Carl Galetti’s "Internet Marketing Super Conference":
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/6/prwebxml253053.php

The information below is purely my opinion and should not be construed as legal advice. If you have a question or a comment, feel free to post it on my blog (please do not email me).

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Are MP3 Files Illegal?

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Are MP3 Files Illegal?… Are We Going To Jail?…

The great "MP3 Debate" has begun…


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In this piece we’re going to discuss a very important topic and it’s something that has come up recently as a result of going to a conference in Las Vegas.

Here’s the story…

Not too long ago a sort of well-known marketer and an attorney I’ve never seen before (and a copywriter I’d never heard of before) got up on stage and basically told everybody that "MP3 files can get you thrown in jail!"

I’m not exaggerating! I heard it with my own ears.

They said that there are people who are going to get sued and can potentially get put in jail because they are selling MP3 files without properly licensing them and paying royalties to the company that holds the patents on MP3 technology.

 I’ve had a lot of people e-mailing me as a result of half-truths and rumors going around about what’s actually the case with MP3 files and proper licensing.

Here’s my take on this situation…

First of all, are we going to jail for selling MP3 files?

Well, I would assume for selling stolen MP3 files then that you could potentially go to jail…

But I doubt that the people who are looking for licensing fees would want to put you in jail if you’re selling your own recordings!

That’s like debtors prison — it’s hard to make money to pay someone you supposedly owe money to when you’re making 25-cents an hour making license plates!

Are there police officers waiting outside your door to arrest you?

My question is: "I don’t know, are you a threat to national security?"

I doubt MP3 files that you make are a threat to national security (but I guess it depends on how creative you are with your MP3 files)!

And finally, is the world coming to an end on Friday, June 31?

I don’t know, but you ought to check your calendar and see what might happen on Friday, June 31st!

Now, here’s the bottom line…

What has come to light is the fact that, all along, allegedly some people should be paying licensing fees to the people who created and patented the technology that it takes to create MP3 files.

Oddly enough this company is based in France (and that certainly creates an interesting picture in your mind based on recent events)… a French company causing problems… go figure.

But anyway… apparently they own the patent on all MP3 technology and some people who are using MP3 technology are supposed to be paying them licensing fees and royalties.

Now, instead of just guessing what they’re saying, why don’t we go to their site and take a look at what they have to say.

So you go to www.MP3Licensing.com  and click on the "royalty rates" and they’ll tell you what their royalty rates are as far as a what you need to pay based on what you’re creating.

Now, I honest to God do not know the difference between MP3 and MP3 Pro, so please don’t e-mail me and ask (I don’t know).

But here www.MP3Licensing.com they list off what you must pay if you’re creating a decoder or encoder for MP3s.

You must pay them a certain amount if you create any hardware that does stuff with MP3.

You gotta pay them a certain amount per unit if you’re making video games. (By the way, let me know! I love video games and I’d love to preview your video game).

Here is the one that information marketers need to pay special attention to:

http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/emd.html

Here they give a definition of who has to pay the royalties.

You gotta pay 2% of related revenue.

By the way, I’m not an attorney nor do I play one on TV… but I would have to assume the related revenue is revenue that’s related to the MP3 that you are either selling or giving away and using on your web site.

Down here it says you gotta pay them $2,000 per calendar year plus 2% of related revenue.

Now down here, it says

"Note: No license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with an annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00."

So if you’re a little company on the Web selling information that’s utilizing MP3 technology, or selling MP3s, or streaming MP3s, or using MP3s and are making less than $100,000 (again I’m not an attorney) it would pretty much makes sense that this is not something to worry about.

Okay now the question on your mind is, "Jim what should I do next?"

… and the answer I have for you is, "I’m not 100% sure right now!"

I called the people www.Camtasia.com and I asked them what the deal was with their software specifically (since I use it so much).

I talked to two different people and basically they told me that that their software is licensed properly when it comes to all the different Mp3 stuff and that how the person uses it (i.e. you and I who used Camtasia) by publishing our videos with a version that uses MP3 audio, it’s up to us to police ourselves.

Now, what I want to show you is something that may help put all this into perspective.

Again, I’m not giving legal advice (I can’t give legal advice).

If you go to a web site called http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com  (choose which language you want to read the site in).

This is some very interesting stuff!

Side NOTE: It’s also interesting to see a lot of these problems are coming out of Europe and out of the World Trade Organization (I will just leave that alone).

But the one page I do want to point out is http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/basics/webshop.html

Go to this URL and they start talking about how software patents make it virtually impossible for the Internet to work if people tried to enforce these things.

Now, if you look at this page, http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/basics/webshop.html , the key issues are 20 different things on a single page that somebody can claim to own a patent on.

If you click this http://webshop.ffii.org/ it takes you to a page where it lists off all the things that someone on owns a "quote unquote" patent to.

If you click through on that it shows who owns the patent on each issue question.

As a reasonable human being, if any of this was enforceable that would mean that every single person who ever sold anything using a client and server (i.e. somebody’s computer and the server, which is where I have this file you are reading) would owe that person a royalty.

This reminds me of the joke I tell everybody about "Hey, you said ‘I gotta tell you’ so pay me two dollars! I’ve trademarked ‘I gotta tell you’ so anyone who says is anywhere in the world owes me two bucks!"

So if you did say "I gotta tell you" then you can paypal me the money!

Another one on there http://webshop.ffii.org/  basically says that anybody who orders anything over cell phone on has to pay these people, a Mr. Ritter Rudolph, allegedly, on what we owe him.

 If you order something over a cell phone (and a lot of people are being encouraged order over a cell phone) then you owe some money to this guy… (Yeah right, you bet! Go ahead and try and collect!)

Another good one is "electronic shopping cart."

So everybody who uses a shopping cart could potentially pay these people a royalty (or anybody who created a shopping cart).

Patents on CDs… films… books… pictures…  paying using credit card via the Internet…

This is really…  really…  really ludicrous!

Now, what does this mean to you? What should you do next?

Again I’m not an attorney, but I can tell you what I think.

You should not freak out about this MP3 thing… and the last thing you need to do is go buy something from the people who are causing people to freak out.

Side NOTE: Frankly, at the conference I attended, I personally found it very distasteful that "legal information" was given in this format — in conjunction with a pitch for a piece of software. It’s fine to sell the information and give out the advice, but not to use it as leverage in this manner to scare people into buying software.

I would not freak out and stop using MP3 files altogether at this point… but that is only my opinion and you need to talk to your attorney and make your own decisions as to what you should do next (I can’t do that for you).

But I did have an interesting conversation with a number of the top marketers on the Internet about this situation and here is where I’m going with this…

"Free MP3s" are starting to become as prominent and as pervasive as "free e-books" were two or three years ago.

Everybody and their brother has a free e-book / free mp3 they’re giving away from their site.

Well, what about a CD-ROM that you put in a regular CD player?

Does an audio CD not have a higher perceived value than a free MP3? I think it does!

And so my suggestion is that, instead a given away free MP3s, why not give away free CD-ROMs that people can put into a regular CD player?

Instead of doing what everybody else does, get everybody listening in to your CD!

Your CD shows up in a nice case and, even if you’re using it to generate a lead, all you’re doing is giving people extra value in differentiating yourself!

So maybe all this bruhaha over "MP3 files" will force everybody to do something better.

Also, what it’s going to do is stimulate what’s called "open source" software… and what that means is that there’ll be some alternatives coming down the pike. (Just make sure your alternate source isn’t poised to get sued by the people who own the patents on MP3s)

One existing alternative that you can use is what’s called the WMA (Windows media audio). This is basically Microsoft’s audio.

And so there are all kinds of alternatives…

My advice also would be that if you’re making under $100,000 a year as a result of your Internet business (of which MP3s are part) I wouldn’t freak out at all!

So I guess the bottom line is that:

  • … the sky is not falling

  • … I think they (MP3 patent owners) may go after some people they can get a lot of money from.

  • … I guess maybe now that everybody knows what the deal is with MP3 patents, maybe they should go after them.

But I also think that now is NOT the time to be all freaked out!

It is time to think about how you can turn this to your advantage by serving people better (not by using this to come out with something that will just force people to buy because they’re all freaked out and don’t know the facts).

I think that this is something that has been coming for a while because the MP3 licensing site copyright is 2002. So it’s not like this hasn’t been around. It’s not like this information hasn’t been out there. It’s not like they haven’t had three years to start going after people.

If you’re doing over $100,000 a year in business and use MP3s, then I would say what you ought to do is talk to your attorney or talk to an attorney that knows about this kind of stuff. Maybe there’s something you can do to lower your liability on for this type of thing. I know I’ve contacted my attorney and we’re thinking about some possibilities on this.

But the bottom line is just to stay calm, see what happens, and put it all into perspective.

Also, I’d encourage you to come and read these sites because ignorance is what’s driving a lot of this panic and fear.

Thank you for listening in, reading, and watching and I hope that this has helped you to understand the issue a little bit better.


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37 Comments »

June 29, 2005

Perinotti :

So Jim, what is it that you actually ‘gotta tell us’?

That maybe it’s serious, maybe not?
And maybe it’s the Europeans’ fault, maybe not?

That’s GREAT. Now I can sleep at night. Fantastic information.

Erica :

Regardless of what Jim says, or how sincere he is in attempting to present a balanced and level headed look at the MP3 questions that have arisen, the LOSERS will be out in force… just look at what “Perinotti” had to say… L-O-S-E-R! The nit-picking, bitter, pessimistic non-achievers who refuse to do any homework and instead lambast what Jim has to say.

BigJim :

I’m confused by Penrotti’s note… this is obviously not an issue that will be solved overnight!

I’m just the messenger… and of anyone, I have the MOST to lose if this does turn out to be the BIG issue it could be… so take it anyway you want to…. I’m just reporting what I know so far and this issue is far from over.

BigJim :

P.S. - I think it’s funny how “anonymous” posters always use fake email addresses to cloak their identities.

I don’t take people seriously unless they stand up and show who they are FOR REAL and how to respond to them.

A public response to Penrotti:

Have you ever noticed there’s a certain type of person that, when given value they didn’t pay for, feels COMPELLED to spit on it?

(And I’m using the polite version of the word that begins with “s” and ends with “t.”)

What that type of person is too busy sputtering to realize is, they are ALWAYS “spitting” into the wind, and it inevitably blows right back on them.

Not a pretty sight.

My advice: Go get a washcloth and wipe yourself off. Then consider replacing knee-jerk criticism with a little gratitude.

Of course, if that doesn’t work for youy, maybe you should ask the State to provide you with a free, top-notch lawyer to answer all your nagging questions and let you sleep a little better at night.

So you’ll have someone else to spit on.

John :

Thanks for your input Jim. Patent lawsuits are very expensive. It would surprise me if the MP# “Powers That Be” would attempt to sue many of the folks in the Internet Marketing Circle. I’m sure if they did, tyhay would starty with the people that make the software and serve peoples MP3’s on their servers. It’s definitluy something to keep you rear to the ground for, but I don’t think there is a lot of need for freakin’ out.

Good advice as far as crewating the CD. In a way it raises the barrier to entry because you now would need to get the CD’s made, stick them in a mailer and put the postage on them. It should set you apart from your competition and is a good idea no matter what happens with the MP3’s.

I am also no lawyer but have been and am involved in patent issues. The legal side of it is a a real pain in the butt. Anyone can get a patent, it’s another thing to defend it, seems the legal fees are always in the 6 figures. I think if they came after us it would be with cease and desists first…

Thanks again Jim!
John

Alice :

Thanks for your insight, Jim, but I gotta tell you, I’m really scared about June 31st.

(I’m sending $2 by PayPal right now)

Jim, thanks for taking the time and effort to write this very intelligent and thoughtful article.

I agree with just about every point you’ve made, and I think you’ve given everyone some good advice. I consider myself to be a most reasonable and logical person - and even I had not done the “legwork”, gone to the website, and actually read the licensing specs. Thanks for being a voice of reason.

For anyone who really is worried, you can use the Ogg Vorbis codec, which does the same thing as MP3 but which is FREE. Of course, nobody knows what it IS. Saying “Download Your Free Ogg File” just doesn’t have the same ring to it…

As an aside, I find it gratifying to note that the Internet Markting community did not merely see this as an opportunity to send out an email blast to their lists about the “product” those presenters at the seminar were selling; instead, I think the community has responded with a resounding sense of conscience, and feeling that this whole thing is, probably, a bit of an overreaction.

Thanks again!

THANK you, Jim!!!

I’d actually gotten an email about this a few days ago from a marketer that I didn’t really trust but I’d gone to the mp3licensing site etc. following it up (of course that particular marketer didn’t offer that information :-)
Anyway, it was really confusing and your information makes things so much clearer, which of course is your forte’.
Now I’ll go back to my podcasting plans.

Thanks again, you the MAN!!

Matthew

Darren :

Thanks Jim I appreciate it.

I’m hangin loose

Jane :

Thanks for the article Jim.

Has anyone considered this - if you make over $100,000 per year, why not just pay the licensing fee? If you give away the mp3s that you create, then you won’t have to pay the per unit license fee.

This might be a cheaper option than paying a specialist attorney!

Pauline :

Excellent debate topic, Jim, thanks for going where others fear to tread and for providing the links to check this out.

Jane, good point!

Great article, Jim. Thanks.

My take is that even those that do between, say 100K and 1MM, would have a chance to “settle”… meaning pay what they owe… before heavy litigation would result.

As a few of the comments above say, it’s expensive to go after those that haven’t paid their royalties, so it would have to be worth their while to sue… and it may be for million+$ users.

Thanks again for your research.

Norman Hallett

Excellent appraisal of the situation, as always Jim. In fact, I came to most of the same conclusions and posted some similar thoughts after doing some reasearch myself on Monday.

You might like to know that situation has been around even longer than the three years indicated by their copyright too. During my research, I found an article - that states they hold these patents - on CNET (News.com), dated December 11, 2000.

They sure have hurried to find and catch us all!

Is It Illegal For You To Make MP3’s

I’ve received several emails over the past week warning me that everyone making and distributing MP3 were potentially violating some…

Kaj Westergard :

Thank you Jim,
for your comment on this.

When I first read about it and saw the sales letter,
I was worried that I was the only person to regard
it (the sales letter) as the low water mark of marketing…

Ooh…I could tell you stories of this …

However:
Rest assured that there will never be any mp3 license chase among small business owners and I doubt that there will be one among the big business owners either.

Simply because of the badwill it would generate and because suing people hasn“t reached the status of a `national sport“ here in Europe. (yet)

Hey Jim,

What I like best about your piece is the reminder that this “crisis” will stimulate alternatives — both from open source providers, and in our own products.

Sheesh, when I’ve only just learned how to make MP3s. ;~)

Cheers,

Sheila

Marketing Defined (Trackback)

Are MP3’s illegal - the MP3 debate

Are MP3’s illegal - are we all going to jail? Recent publications have suggested people are going to get sued and can potentially get put in jail simply for selling MP3 files without a proper license. Read Jim Edward’s excellent analysis of the facts!

7CM Marketing Blog (Trackback)

The sky is not falling

Jim Edwards has also done his homework on this subject and, you’ll be glad to know that he has come up with a very similar set of thoughts and conclusions as Martin and myself did.

Thanks Jim,
This is an interesting development not only for end users and content providers but for legal experts as well. I am adding your link to Tort Visionary.

All the Best

Hey Jim

I gotta tell you (drat, there goes another $2) that not a lot is going to happen on Friday June 31st.

Why not? Check your diary. There IS no June 31st - at least, not on the British side of the puddle :-)
Seriously, You made a good post there. It’s not going to be long before scores of lawyers crawl out from under their stones.

It’s almost as ludicrous as the UK’s British Telecom trying to claim a patent on hyperlinks.

Cheers,

Ian Traynor
York, UK

BigJim :

My dad (and co-author on www.TurnWordsIntoTraffic.com) just called me to say he really enjoyed this post, but did I realize that there is NO June 31.

I replied, “Yes, dad, I know there is no June 31st. It was an attempt at subtle humor.”

My dad then replied, “Ok, I’m just not used to anything you do being subtle!”

Thanks dad… [[sigh]]

Jim

LOL! I gotta … errr … say to you, that I just got off the phone with Paul Colligan who just returned from GnomeDex ‘05. It was frickin’ HUGE, according to Paul. And the big news of the year? Podcasting, of course! Paul said the place was buzzing like crazy — and tons of new stuff coming out in the Podcast realm that will blow your mind.

The event was sponsored by the Gorillas … you know, Yahoo!, Google, Blogger, mFoundry, Audible — all of which are huge on MP3’s. Now, here’s the point: not one single mention throughout the entire event was made about the “MP3 scare.” That tells you a lot right there.

Anyhow, the point is, not one

Are MP3s Illegal?

There’s a new threat (well, seeming threat) spreading on the Internet these days, mostly perpetuated by a recent press release. This is currently being discussed on many forums, too, and some point to the MP3 licensing website. In a nutshell,…

Well, Jim…don’t feel bad. I got the joke. I couldn’t miss it after you attempted to launch a product on November 31 of last year? Remember that?! :-)
And I really did send you $2, but your stinkin’ PayPal address told me I needed to submit a support ticket to get the payment confirmation to you. Check your account and don’t spend it all in one place.

BigJim :

LMAO - I did try that, didn’t I ;-)
Great point Michel… they would NOT be pushing the PODCAST thing if they thought this was a big issue.

Paranoid :

If people would do detailed searches on sites like techdirt.com and slashdot.org you would find out that the USPTO is already in the process of reviewing several bogus patents and that this is sure to come up sooner or later.

Heck, they just canceled the SBC web navigation patent.

One more reason to unsub from several IM newsletters. Nothing but GD hype.

Hello Jim,

Well, it took me forever and a day to get audio on my sites…with this recent turn of events, I got my attorney on the phone. I am a Paralegal, but my attorney is an internet law specialist, so I figured I better get the skinney from him. Briefly, he suggested that we remember to CYA (cover your a**). For example, you said that you use Camtasia alot, my attorney said that so long as their licensing is in order, and that condition does not change, you would have nothing to worry about. I asked him if we could apply that legal advice globally–being related to cyberspace–and he said absolutely. So everyone can relax and breathe a sigh of relief. Just be sure that you, as well as any third party providers, are not infringing on the copyright or license agreement of others.
CYA, you know. Thank you Jim. Take care.

Virginia Randono
Webmaster

The FortuneFinder Network

Thanks so much Jim for clearing that up for the rest of us. I never even thought about giving out my own CDs with my podcast on it. That’s something to think about.

DeAnna Spencer
Learn Small Business

Mike :

Jim,

I appreciate you doing the research and filtering all of this mess for us.

Keep pluggin’!

Life’s tough…blog hard !

Gene Bryson :

Jim,

No worries. Just remember that Fraunhofer only has a patent on the compression algo. The license fees go to the Fraunhofer Institute who created the compression process. Others such as LAME, Ogg-Vorbis, etc. run a higher, sometimes better compression and don’t have license fees. In fact, beginning with Winamp 3, you can rip an mp3 recording in Ogg-Vorbis. Little more research will reveal the the FI started to enforce their rights in ‘98 - can you say 7 years ago??? Anyway, my suggestion (not advice mind you)is to rip mp3s in another compression if you’re paranoid, but I wouldn’t worry about it otherwise.

Type in the search term ‘lossless compression’ and find out which encoders/rippers use what. The absolute safest route would be to encode personally in whatever compression format you want, but to convert into a non-fraunhofer format if you will use it commericially. Alot of encoders will do that for you. And with just speech, any sound degradation would be minimal.

With best regards,
Gene Bryson
Recovering Attorney

June 30, 2005

Chris Upson :

Great article, as usual, Jim. I had heard about the “problem” a couple of days ago and did have reservations about the pitch with the legal info.

You’ve clarified a lot of things and it occurs to me that even if they do go after people “infringing” on their patents starting this year, it will take probably a good ten years or more to get the “big boys” that are breaching into the courts. Plenty of time for other technologies to become available and MP3 may even have fallen by the wayside by then.

Not very nice of the Ogg people to try scare tactics to sell their stuff. Maybe it’s not as good as MP3??

Thanks for getting the information out into the open and for doing all that work to research it. Knew I could count on your take to be logical and reasonable. Chris

Jim,

Great info. After you guys (You and Michael Fortin) talked about it, it sure gives me a lot of relief!

Thanks.
Patric Chan

The real bottom line is flat out written in black and white right here:

http://www.abundancegroup.com/reports/mp3issues.html

And I quote:

I recognize that many Internet Marketers are just small-time and have not yet “hit it big” with their websites. However, the licensing provisions put in place at mp3licensing.com are forward looking. In other words, say you put up a brand new website and include mp3 files on it (either in a streaming format, a free download, or as a product you sell, etc.), you have no idea whether you will make any sales at all - let alone $100,000 worth of sales. You also don’t know whether you’ll get a single email address for a free download. But, if you are successful in any way — even reaching a single person and you have NOT obtained a license, you can be assessed fines and penalties by Thomson. Is your hard earned money worth the risk?

Patrick

Alan :

It is interesting that after the big scare then comes the ad.

If you are interested in changing your format there are a number of free players available such as WinAmp
.
Recorders/encoders for Ogg Vorbis start at about $11 with Pro versions at about $25 see “Total Recorder” at High Criteria.

This is just an example. If, and it is a big if, MP3 becomes too expensive then there are alternatives.

Don’t be spooked into paying for something you don’t need.
Alan

July 1, 2005

Michel Fortin :

Or simple use the LAME (open source) encoder with your MP3 creation. See:

http://www.mp3dev.org/

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